Completed British 19th C, except portraits, Maritime Subjects 70 Could anyone provide details of the life and work of the artist ‘H. Frost’?

Could the first part of the signature be a ligature 'JH'?

Sorry, the image of the back of the picture did not attach at the first attempt.

I would like to thank Michael Charles, Proprietor and Director of The British Mercantile Marine Memorial Collection, for his comments on the 'Douglas' and how it should be designated:

‘It would be remiss of me not to point out that the subject of this painting should be designated not ‘s.s.’ Douglas but ‘p.s.’ Douglas. Strictly speaking, the prefix ‘s.s.’ stands not for ‘steamship’ but for ‘screw steamship’ and came into being in the 1830s/40s when the introduction and increasing adoption of screw propulsion necessitated differentiation from the propulsion by paddle by which alone all steamboats had been driven previously. The distinction is all the more important in this instance, as the Douglas of this painting was but the first of three successive steamships of the I.o.M.S.P.Co. to bear the name, the second one of which was also a paddle-steamer but the third one was propelled by screw. For the total elimination of any confusion, therefore, the subject of this painting should correctly be described and referred to as the p.s. Douglas (I). Interestingly, the painting can probably be dated to between 1858, when the ship was built and entered service for the I.o.M.S.P.Co., and 1862, when she was sold to agents in Liverpool and embarked upon what proved to be a singularly eventful participation in the American Civil War, first as a Confederate blockade runner and eventually, following her capture and conversion, as a warship of the Union Navy.’

This is the Wikipedia entry for 'Steamship': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamship

We have still not found anything on the artist. This is a competent specialist portrait of a specific paddle-steamer, so presumably the artist made others in this vein.

From its first years, the ship was named the RMS Douglas, as in the Royal Mail Steamship Douglas. A closer view of part of the painting's details, all be they in black and white, can be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Douglas_(1858)#/media/File:SS_Douglas_(I).JPG

and the fuller Wikipedia entry on its history is here:

The attached advertisement, from the Liverpool Mercury, of Wednesday 28 April 1858, contains one of the earliest mentions of the vessel.

A photograph from its construction site in Glasgow in 1858 can be found here: https://bit.ly/2tTVMmz

This is hardly my area, so to speak, and really something for Pieter van der Merwe to address, but this picture looks very similar to the work of Samuel Walters (1811-1882), who was based in Liverpool and has works in the same collection as well as many others on Art UK. I suppose there might be an association between him and Frost. Some examples by Walters below:

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/tynwald-number-1-150140/view_as/grid/search/makers:samuel-walters-18111882/page/2

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-great-gale-of-january-1839-97882/view_as/grid/search/makers:samuel-walters-18111882/page/1

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-isle-of-man-steam-packet-company-vessel-monas-isle-150142/view_as/grid/search/makers:samuel-walters-18111882/page/2

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/ben-my-chree-150141/view_as/grid/search/makers:samuel-walters-18111882/page/3

Was there a Manx School of marine painters?

The link above should be working here:

https://bit.ly/2Gg5LVS

Apparently, there was a Liverpool School of marine painters, of which Walters was a leading member. Frost may well have been one of its members also. Again, Pieter would know far better about all this.

This is a 'to do' when I can get out to the NMM collection centre and see if there is any archive slip and photos of other work by Frost. I suspect not, since if so 'Teddy' Archibald would have mentioned him in his 'Dictionary of Sea Painters'and he's not there. Sam Davidson's work on the Liverpool painters and Marion Brewington's 'Dictionary' also need a look but I don't have these to hand: the last is a good list (with American bias) but also names not in Archibald. The L'pool/Walters suggestion is a good one, but Frost is otherwise well off obvious radar. I think it is just 'H. Frost': both the H and F have the ligated J appearance on the first stroke, so it's probably just a writing quirk and may be usefully distinctive if more turn up.

This picture in the same collection is signed "HF 1860" at lower left. Could it be by H. Frost also?

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/schooner-william-of-douglas-150006/search/venue:manx-museum-6124/page/30

Thank you, Jacinto. I'd say no doubt it's the same hand, judging from that curly 'HF', and I do think it probably is just 'H', as Pieter pointed out, and not a ligated JH. I'll ask the collection to look at the back.

This pictures in the same collection, currently unattributed, seems quite similar in style to the picture under discussion. I assume it has been checked previously for any sort of signature, either in front or in back, but it might be worthwhile to check again.

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/schooner-rebecca-150131/search/venue:manx-museum-6124/page/12

Jacinto, the painting of the schooner 'Rebecca' does indeed have the same signature bottom left (I've attached a slightly enhanced version of that part)

That's excellent, Andrew, and it is indeed the same signature. The style looked essentially the same as in our picture. I'm sure Marion will alert the collection.

Well done for finding those: does anyone have the patience to look through the LIverpool collection(s) since the obvious query is whether Frost was someone based in IoM, as the 'Manx' ship-subjects might suggest, or the Liverpool end of the connection (or perhaps further north towards Lancaster, Fleetwood etc)?

In an entry for the 23rd January 1873, the United Grand Lodge of England's Register of Contributions: Country and Foreign Lodges, lists a Henry Frost, artist, residing at 5, Gill Street, Liverpool.

I found this at Merseyside Maritime Museum which has a similar style or feel, but I cannot make out a signature, though there might be something at lower left (maybe Andrew Shore can help again):

https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/rapido-103647/search/venue:merseyside-maritime-museum-5294/page/8/view_as/grid

Your find sounds promising, Kieran. I hope Pieter will find him in one of the reference works he mentioned but had not checked yet.

Two other unattributed pictures in the same collection are potentially of interest. The first one may be signed at the bottom, about midway between the left side and the center of the picture:

https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-wreck-of-the-st-george-1830-150025/view_as/grid/search/keyword:unknown-artist-manx/page/9

The other one is also a storm scene:

https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/ship-caught-in-a-storm-150085/view_as/grid/search/keyword:unknown-artist-manx/page/9

Thank you to Michael Charles for the following message:

I can assure Pieter that I have already scrutinised not only both Archibald’s and Brewington’s ‘Dictionar[ies]’ and Sam Davidson’s 'Liverpool & Marine Art' but also the several other works on ship portraiture in my reference library and have found no mention of H. Frost. Nor is there any painting by any artist of that name either in my original collection of historic portraits of British merchant steam vessels, now in public ownership, or in my ongoing British Mercantile Marine Memorial Collection, which collections together number some 1,700 such works and constitute probably the world’s largest and most diverse assemblage of this kind. Although the total ‘stock’ of such portraits originally created will of its very nature have been finite, peaking probably shortly before the onset of the First World War, through time and circumstance this will subsequently have become greatly diminished – which is why I feel so concerned to conserve what remains, be it fine art or folk art - yet happily there may never cease to come to light works and the names of artists previously unknown.

With regard to Jacinto’s query as to whether there was a Manx School of marine painters, I have to say that I don’t know of any as such, but the Merseyside Maritime Museum possesses two steamship portraits by one R.S. Clague and in its ‘Illustrated Catalogue of [its own] Marine Paintings’ it includes the suggestion that he may have been a Manx artist. No doubt the Manx Museum themselves will know of others. Of the artists of the Liverpool School, not only Samuel Walters but certainly also Joseph Heard produced works relating to the Isle of Man, while a portrait by Parker Greenwood of the I.o.M.S.P.Co’s. p.s. Queen Victoria is but one of half a dozen such works by this artist in one or the other of my collections.

Thanks for all these positive contributions, which get the matter a little further forward. Frost was evidently a 'north-west England' painter who did both 'pierhead' ship portraits and more sophisticated compositions that included named vessels, in a similar stylistic line to Samuel Walters. It is also reasonable to suppose, though not proven, that he was the Henry Frost who is recorded as living at 5 Gill Street. Liverpool, in January 1873. Since it has also been suggested the painting we started with of the 'Douglas' of 1858 may date to before 1862, it looks like he is someone whom Archibald (had he mentioned him) would have listed as 'working in the third quarter of the 19th century'. How far that date range can be extended either way remains to be defined from dated works (or dates of ships in identifiable but undated ones). On the 'school' business, I expect there were a few similar ship-painters working in the I.o.M, though rather doubt they would amount to a distinctive marine 'school': it's not a big place and, at least in commercial work -which ship-portraiture was - you needed a suffiicient 'critical mass' in terms of potential market to make it a business: Liverpool and environs was the most obvious local focus for that.

I suppose the commercial and niche nature of the work accounts for the relative anonymity or obscurity of many of its practitioners, and the corresponding difficulty in bringing more information to light.

In any case, Frost appears to have been reasonably accomplished in his field, but it may be that much of his work has simply not survived.

'Niche' is a more appropriate description for current interest in ship portraiture, which is itself a niche within 'marine painting' as an atritsic genre, and that in turn a niche -or at least a special-interest area - of painting as a whole. One of today's ironies for a nation which claims things 'maritime' as a key part of of its historical identity and (at least former) greatness - from harmlessly waving Union Jacks and singing 'Rule Britannia' at the Proms to less harmlessly waving them with sense of (especially) 'little-England entitlement' underlying recent events - is that the post-WWII period has seen a huge retreat from large-scale involvement with the sea. It still carries over 90% of physical trade, including most of what the UK eats and wears on its back: London also remains capital of world shipping as an 'invisible' financial operation. But, that apart, as a field of British mass hands-on employment 'shipping', afloat or in port operations, has vastly diminished to what it was: 'dockers' for example no longer exist in the legions that once made them a vital part of the economy when working and a political power when they refused to. The only ships people see today are not in the hearts of major port cities, like London or Liverpool once were. Unless you live in a container port like Lowestoft - places generally on the outer rim of common daily experience save for the locals -you may only ever use a Channel and other ro-ro ferry, or perhaps an occasional holiday cruise ship. The relevance here of this vast change of overall public experience, from a time when everyone had someone in the family, or knew people, working in 'something maritime', is that it is now almost impossible to imagine how much it was a part of life: also how ubiquitous, at least in port towns, the production of ship images and other 'maritime crafts' of various sorts were. Tt wasn't 'niche' at all: it was commonplace, with the proof being how much of such stuff of all sorts is still in circulation, quite apart from what is in museums and the no doubt also huge loss past to many causes. Much was probably thrown away as ' old junk' - as many things are until time converts them into 'interesting antique collectables': and in major cities, including all such as were ports, the likely losses to WWII bombing in domestic and other premises is probably incalculable, albeit museum collections generally but not all escaped.

Peter -nothing to do with the painting under discussion but a BTW about your recent observations about Maritime Britain. Many times I have popped down to Shotley point ,get me Bins out and watch the big ships coming into Felixstowe.Some of them are the biggest in the world.Always other spotters there! The Tugs spin them round on a sixpence and they are nudged into dockside.Then the operation to load and unload gets underway.You can only realise how big they are when you see the minute container lorries quayside.And after a day or so they go out.Quite interesting to watch.After half a mile they go for throttle up- a large cloud of black smoke comes from the Funnels and they pick up speed at quite an amazing rate and soon dissapear into the distance. And don't let statistics confuse you.Felixstowe is by far the biggest container operation in this country.These big ships only call at one European port, so a lot of the containers unloaded are transhipped on smaller ships to other European ports like Rotterdam- so don't show up as import statistics. Here is photo I took last year from Shotley across the Orwell Estuary .

Sorry Louis, I meant Felixstowe not Lowestoft, but you prove my point: them as is on top of it and interested know about it, but its 'ten leagues beyond men's life' in majority modern consciousness: not in the middle of major population centres as was the case until post-WWII containerization; nor as it was when the UK-based, British flagged merchant marine was largest in the world and the Empire it serviced at maximum extent ( amazingly late, in 1932): nor as when the equally massive Royal Navy was maintained at 'two-power' level (i.e. as large as those of the two most likely opponents). That was the past - 'another country and they did [and thought] things differently there', above all because a far greater proportion of the home population was involved than in current circumstances. But, as you say, while an interesting philosophical debate - and one necessarily active in maritime museums seeking to pull in a 'non-sea-oriented' modern audiences - its not about this picture: so let's call a halt!

So as to this picture--Having read all the posts I am beginning to wonder if Mr Frost actually existed ! Looking at the caligraphy of the H and the F I wonder if the artist was Chinese?? :-)

I hope the collection can carefully check (or re-check) the two pictures I mentioned in my penultimate post for any sort of signature. It already appears to have three signed pictures by H(enry) Frost, and it might have one or two more.

One more work to expand the oeuvre of H. Frost. The attached oil on canvas was offered by Duke's Auctioneers in 2017.

Thanks Tim: if that didn't have the signature (in slightly different style l.l.) we'd be fishing for a name. Its a horse of a rather different sort and quality to some of the others, probably 1860s at latest in ship terms and not in the Irish Sea. I wonder if its meant to be off Plymouth: though I'm a bit hazy over the size and views of the Mewstone from inside the Sound the island is in the right place. Its a frigate of at least 36 guns but somewhat romanticised as to lines and the sail ('set to the royals') that its carrying for such a location, even if taking it in to enter port.

No-one is under any obligation to chase H. Frost (or perhaps Frosts), comparative signatures, or the dating of named ships etc further. I suggest we leave this open to the end of February in case the collection(s) or anyone else wants to, but I'll then pull together what seems credible and recommend it winds up, based on the facts already or by then established: i.e that there was an artist (marine or not) called Henry Frost in Liverpool in 1873 and there are signed ship-portraits/marines of apparently 'locally based' vessels that (mainly) signatures suggest may be by him, over whatever date range may then be clearer.

It might also be with checking to see if there is a signature in the bottom left or right of this work, also in the Manx Museum and dated, if contemporary with its subject, to 1863. As the ship is flying a Masonic flag from its aft mast, and as Frost was a Mason, there might be a connection. Perhaps Pieter would know what the other flags are signalling:

https://bit.ly/36yV7V6

Leghorn, most likely, is the port Livorno, in Italy, with which the Isle of Man traded, mainly in fish and particularly in salmon, from the 18th century onwards.

That one ('Vixen' of Peel) is -on general style- by an artist fairly local to Leghorn, as one might expect: i.e no further away than Malta. An solely Italian-speaker could have added the flawless English inscription, which the captain - and probably at least part-owner - would have supplied, plus instructions on the flags. However, Leghorn had a very longstanding British trade connection, including a substantial English expatriate community. Malta was of course solidly British from 1804, so it could have been doe as well there

The flag-hoist is 'Vixen''s official 'number'in the Marryat Code (1817, which was superseded over a period after the Commercial/ International code came in in the late 1850s). Beginning below the masonic pennant it reads: 2nd distinguishing pennant, 2, 3, 6, 8. The horizontal blue/yellow/ red tricoleur should really be a short triangular pennant and the distinguishing one also short, but one sees minor variations. Interesting that the captain specified a masonic pennant, though it always was an international fraternity and many seamen belonged. I also don't recall seeing one before, so its worth remembering.

Here's another picture in the same collection of a ship registered in the Isle of Man entering the Bay of Naples, no doubt also done by a local artist there:

https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/brig-jane-williamson-entering-the-bay-of-naples-150112/view_as/grid/search/keyword:manx-naples/page/1

This picture in Guernsey feels like a potential Frost, and it is signed, but unfortunately the signature is obscured by the frame according to the entry information (there is, of course, a remedy for that):

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/brigantine-morning-star-built-1857-136687

The brig 'Jane Williamson' (two comments above) is flying J, W, T, D in the late-1850s Commercial/International code: its 'number' system shifted to letters. There is (under both systems) a considerable fleet of currently 'anon' British ship portraits in Art UK that could be identified by looking them up in the various editions of Marryat and, from 1857, the annual Mercantile Navy List (which began in that year). The former is not as inclusive as the latter, and that in turn becomes difficult in the mid-1860s (I think) when its stops being a mirror-index listing by number and name, only the latter as I recall. Ready access to annual Lloyds Register and (for foreign registry) International Bureau Veritas volumes are also needed as back-up. It would be a bit of a flog, and though 'do-able' in the NMM library I don't know where else has ready-access runs of MNL and the Registers: even at Greenwich the Marryat editions are not complete.

Pieter, this discussion led me to A. J. Jansen, who has many ship pictures on Art UK, including two at the NMM. However, the "A" in his usual signature is really an H that looks like an A, and his actual name was Harry J. Jansen. I mention this because the NMM has one picture listed under and signed Harry J. Jansen as if it were by a different painter, and it is the same man (the J Jansen part of the signature is identical to that in pictures signed A. J. Jansen).

I was enlightened on Jansen by Peter Appleyard, Custodian of the Goole Museum, which has several works by "A" J Jansen.

Thanks for raising that, albeit better for separate resolution. You are in effect saying that the undoubtedly distinctive ship portraitist 'A. J.' Jansen didn't exist and that all works credibly attributed to him by signature and style are by Harry J. Jansen, whose apparent date range from one web ref is c. 1895-1933: according to Archibald's 'Sea Painters' he was a Rotterdam artist. If you can ask Mr Appleyard to contact Marion Richards at Art UK to add anything else he knows that would be a start, not least for the pictures at Goole currently down as by 'A. J.'

[N.B: there was also a Hamburg marine painter called Alfred Jansen (1859-1935) - or Jensen according to Archibald: he's clearly not the same man, but web refs tend to mix them up.]

Pieter, Mr Appleyard had told me he planned to contact Art UK. Here is the most relevant part of his communication to me:

"Harry J Jansen (also known as A.J Jansen) was a Dutch Pierhead painter who was active in Rotterdam and Antwerp from 1890 to 1932. His work is widely distributed in Britain although not much is known about him. Unlike many Pierhead painters he generally worked in oils and specialised in paintings of the Great Eastern Railway passenger and cargo steamers running to Rotterdam, Antwerp and the Hook, selling his pictures aboard the steamers of the ferry service as they lay in dock."

It is I, however, who deduced (I hope correctly) that the more or less standard use of A. J. Jansen is based on the appearance of the usual signature, in which what I assume was meant to be an H looks more like an A due to Jansen's particular cursive calligraphy.

Finally, in addition to the NMM picture signed and listed as Harry J. Jansen, there is one other picture on Art UK listed under that name but signed with the usual signature that looks like A. J. Jansen, so presumably that collection (Ulster Transport Museum) has similar information to that of Mr Appleyard:

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/ss-orlock-head-122227/view_as/grid/search/keyword:harry-jansen/page/1

Jacinto, Thank you, Art UK will pick up the matter of the misidentification of works by Harry J. Jansen.

Whether the first name of the ship-portrait painter who invariably signed his works 'A.J. Jansen' was in fact 'Harry' I can neither confirm nor deny, but I would feel confident in asserting that there was only one such artist, his style being unmistakeably sui generis. The painting in the Ulster Transport Museum is indeed by his hand, as are the three in the NMM and the two in the Peabody Museum of Salem, Massachusetts. As are also the seventeen in my own original collection, now in public ownership, and the yet further nine in my ongoing British Mercantile Marine Memorial Collection.

A painting by Harry J. Jansen, dated 1907 and executed in Antwerp, of the steamer 'Nyroca' (built in Cork in 1903), can be seen here. The zoom facility on the site allows for a clear examination of the signature, bottom right corner:

https://www.rogallery.com/artists/harry-j-jansen/antwerp/

On the site, Jansen's dates are given as (1895 - 1930).

Newspaper reports for late 1907 show that the 'Nyroca' made several journeys between Manchester and Antwerp.

(I add this here as Jansen has been brought up in this discussion, but perhaps one relevant to him should be started.)

Harry J. Jansen's painting of the steamer "Nottingham" can be seen here:

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/harry-j-jansen-dutch-c-1895-1930-the-steamer-64-c-ff04338a3d

And Jansen's painting of the "Titanic" is here, with a signature that includes his first name in full as well as the location, of Antwerp:

https://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-steamship-titanic-harry-j-jansen.html

Kieran, the Titanic picture is the one at the NMM, and the only one I know signed Harry J Jansen. All others I have seen are signed "A" J Jansen.

As there are a few good signatures to see for Alfred J. Jansen (1859 - 1935) online, it could well be that this is a father and son relationship, as many of their works for the early 1900s are signed Antwerp, Antwerpen and R'Dam. See here for example:

http://bit.ly/2UdCKCj

Distinguishing one's signature from the other would take careful analysis.

Or maybe Alfred liked to be known as Harry and all the paintings are actually by the same artist.

There seems to be a good bit of confusion or misattribution, Kieran. Alfred Jensen (born in Denmark, but active in Germany) was not a pierhead painter; he had academic training and became a professor at the Hamburg School of Applied Arts. His style was different (more slick or sophisticated) and he signed as Alfred Jensen with no middle initial. The picture in your last comment is misattributed to him; it is by the "A" J Jansen (or Harry J Jansen) we had been discussing. Here are two real Alfred Jensens:

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/alfred-jensen-randers-1859-hamburg-1935-.-comp-6A845B293D

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/addison/42/162242/H3221-L08438597.jpg

I expect one or two new discussions need to be opened, one for "A" J (Harry) Jansen and one for Alfred Jensen (under whose name there are 9 pictures on Art UK, all of which I am fairly certain are really by "A" J (Harry) Jansen, the Dutch pierhead painter.

Kieran, the signatures in your composite are all for "A" (or H) J Jansen plus the one Harry J Jansen; they are not by Alfred Jensen.

The present discussion stream is about the identity of and work by H[enry] Frost, not Jansen or Jensen - who have been incidentally lobbed into it but are are in no way related.

Could we perhaps take a rain-check on both of them until Marion at Art UK has had a chance to do a basic sort-out of the 'A.J. Jansens' on the system, practically all of which are clearly enough by Harry Jansen, and any obvious crossovers with Jensen. Perhaps she could then start a separate discussion stream (or two separate ones on Jansen the Dutchman and Jensen the Dane/German) over any questionable cases. This is a matter which has quite properly been raised, but initially better broadly sorted out at 'system' level from top-down, not bottom-up in the wrong slot.

That sounds most reasonable, Pieter.

Kieran, is there any relevant or useful information to be had on Henry Frost from census data? You and Osmund are very good at that sort of thing, and it might prove helpful.

Marian Richards this my proof hope its helpful

Thanks, but that is by an entirely different and more recent -probably mid/late 20th century - 'H. Frost', not the one operating in the Liverpool area around the back end of the 19th century.

It's reasonable to suppose he is/was a painter fairly local to Colchester but he (nor 'our' man) seem to come up under an 'H. Frost' Art UK search and I have not ploughed through the 346 items that come up under just 'Frost': if you find another canvas more credibly like your fishing boats among them, please post it up, but he's certainly not 'Frost of Liverpool'.

Sorry, that should read 'neither he (nor our man) seem to come up'.

I would agree with Pieter's assessment of Mr Belton's picture. I went through everything that comes up currently under "Frost" in Art UK, and I found no other maritime picture by an artist of that surname apart from the one under discussion (the two other pictures by the Liverpool Frost in the Manx collection, identified in this discussion, have not yet been listed under his name).

The signatures of the "Liverpool Frost," particularly their curly capital H and capital F, are different from the signature on Mr. Belton's picture, where those initials lack a ligated J appearance. This further supports that our Frost is not the Colchester one.

Thank you very much to Hannah Murphy at Manx Museum for the information sheet and images (attached). She checked the backs and frames of the paintings, and found signatures on three of them (two of the signatures are already noted in the discussion). The snapshots were taken on a mobile phone and the lighting in the store was not ideal, unfortunately. There were no signatures visible on the remaining paintings, but any information gleaned from the accession registers and the collections management database has been noted.

Where on the picture is the signature for 1954-2644? It appears to be the initials J Y followed by 1910 (though the Y could perhaps be a K or, much less likely, an X).

As for "Rebecca" (1954-7830), the signature is not J H Frost but H Frost, with the curl or ligated J appearance for both the initial H and the initial F previously remarked upon in the picture under discussion (also present in the picture signed only H F, which is 1954-1349).

Is there someone in Archibald's Dictionary of Sea Painters with the initials J Y who was active in 1910 and whose work could be compared to the Manx picture?

In response to Jacinto's comment on 25/01/2020 about a possible signature on 'The Wreck of the St George', I have checked the high-res image again and it is not signed in the place you mention - these are just surface marks.

I can't see any red marks, whether corresponding to a signature or not, on 1954-2644 'Ship Caught in a Storm'. I agree that the red signature provided by the collection (05/02/2020) looks like 'JY / 1910', or possibly JK. I have asked the collection for more information.

Higher resolution and zoomable images of most pictures in the Manx Museum collection are available on their own iMuseum website:

https://www.imuseum.im/search/museum/search?tab=museum&view;=&term;=&collection=Art+Collection&title;=&am;=&idno;=&dfrom;=&dto;=¢ury;=.=&name;=&display;=&sort;=&size=20

I suspect the Wreck of the St George is probably too early for Frost as it will have been painted soon after the event in 1830. It would be nice to know more about it before the RNLI bicentenary in 2024 as it depicts an important event in its early history.

Thank you, Mark. 'Ship Caught in a Storm' can be thus examined at the site you linked, but unless the red signature previously provided by the collection is not in the available image, I cannot find it.

I suggest we close the discussion on Henry (?) Frost, probably of Liverpool, for the present. As far as I can see we have three 'definites' all in the Manx collection (and two of them needing to be changed from 'unknown artist') but so far none elsewhere firmly identified in UK public hands, or very definitely or usefully otherwise in information terms. Kieran's discovery of a possible Liverpool artist in a Masonic source is the other documentary new ground and the resulting summary so far is attached below.

Hannah Murphy has kindly supplied some notes on a few other marine puzzles in MNH holdings (as well as the three Frosts) and a general issue about the listing of work by Harry J. Jansen (c.1890-c.1932) needing some general ArtUK sorting out has also been raised for separate resolution.

Repeat copy with typos corrected attached.

Pieter, I would add that the "Rebecca" is currently dated as c. 1870. Also, your second sentence should start with "One" instead of "On," and in the same sentence, "twin-funnelled" should be hyphenated. There is also one mention of the "Douglas" which is not in italics as it is elsewhere in your document.

I posted my previous comment before seeing you corrected the italics problem for "Douglas." Also, I suppose it could be mentioned that a stylistic similarity to Samuel Walters also tends to support that Frost was based in Liverpool.

Thanks: I'll leave Marion to correct any other minor technical glitches when she files a copy away. There is no date on any of the three MNH paintings: fortunately the 'Douglas' does suggest a fairly narrow one (4 years) from the ship's history. The 'William' appears to have had a 10-year life (1860-70) in consistent ownership. I will try and remember to look up the 'Rebecca' but doubt it will be suffciently specific to add anything we do not already have.