Completed British 16th and 17th C, except portraits, British 18th C, except portraits, Continental European before 1800, Portraits: British 16th and 17th C, Portraits: British 18th C 40 Could this be a copy of a lost Simon Verelst?

Simon Pietersz. Verelst (1644–probably 1721) on Art UK
https://bit.ly/2YQcBu7

This could be early 18th century. The fruits are better done than the figure, and Verelst was better at still lifes than portraits. It might be by him, but not necessarily. Did he do still life elements for other portrait painters?

This face looks a bit familiar.Is it Mdm Pompadour???

No, Louis, this is earlier.

This discussion has been opened up to British 16th, 17th and 18th C portraits and other paintings groups.

How can one be sure this is English as opposed to French? And how can one be sure that, even if this is not a Ceres, it is not a portrait of an actual woman as Ceres?

I think the current title is quite plausible and probably accurate, barring evidence to the contrary. What is not plausible is the connection to Greuze, neither chronologically nor stylistically. Compare to this:

http://www.artnet.com/artists/françois-de-troy/ceres-Sz2ZhaYplm--gaJ_zth3fw2

I cannot prove it, but I think this picture is French, or it feels more French than British to me.

Yes French is a distinct possibility - about 1740ish I would suggest. And I am sure everyone knows the symbolism of the fig held in the ladies hand and the fresh juicy grapes offered on a platter :-) .

Is there any information on the back of the painting? Was there an original frame? Can the bowl or salver be dated?

I notice that this picture is now being used to welcome visitors to the Art UK website. It is a very stylish and timeless which might make an attractive book cover.

A lot of care and skill has been taken painting the fruits on offer and I suspect the lady portrayed had very special relationship with the patron or the artist but now her identity is a complete mystery. A perfect challenge for the Art Detective team.

Hello this is Kate, the Collections Officer at the museum that has care of this picture, Erewash Museum in Ilkeston, Derbyshire. I'm pleased to see so much interest in this picture. I'll look into the question of the images on the back and the frame and will report back. Any more ideas do let me know

In my opinion, Louis, this is earlier than 1740s--probably pre-1720.

The woman could easily be a courtesan, as in someone's mistress, with a mythological veneer as cover. It is not out of the question, however, that she's an aristocrat in the guise of a goddess, which was common enough. Still, in the latter case the attributes chosen should have been less provocative or salacious, such as a sheaf of wheat and a scythe, for instance.

I meant a sickle, not a scythe.

The closest thing to this by Verelst on Art UK is his Nell Gwyn, but even that is more formal and "lady-like" than our picture:

https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/eleanor-nell-gwyn-158731/search/actor:verelst-simon-pietersz-1644probably-1721/page/1/view_as/grid

Here is a more conventional lady-as-Ceres:

http://www.artnet.com/artists/françois-de-troy/bildnis-einer-dame-als-ceres-eGhClZwfI0TXgBpSeMtuqg2

Depictions in the 17th century of Ceres with mainly fruit rather than the usual sheaf of corn or sickle are not unknown. Here's a couple of Jan Brueghel the Younger's:

https://www.art.com/products/p12262893-sa-i1633407/jan-brueghel-the-younger-ceres-goddess-of-abundance-17th-century.htm

http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/583/jan-brueghel-the-younger-hendrik-van-balen-landscape-with-ceres-allegory-of-earth-flemish-1630s/

but in truth I wouldn't get too focused on titles because as they may not be that well documented. Like a lot of the Erewash pictures, this comes from the Howitt Bequest which is discussed on an earlier Art Detective thread for another picture in it:

https://www.artuk.org/artdetective/discussions/discussions/is-this-portrait-dutch-or-english-who-is-the-sitter

and the collection doesn't really that much information, no doubt because the donor wasn't the main collector (Enoch Dawson Howitt, a London surgeon) but his son. Even though most of the paintings are 19th century less than half have a secure attribution. Howett Snr must have enjoyed collecting what was effectively contemporary art, but wasn't fussed about who it was by. So this could well have been a fairly recent copy or pastiche that appealed to him.

While this clearly isn't based on one of Greuze's sentimental and creepy nymphets (even his boys are creepy nymphets), I don't think it's based on Simon Verelst either. He was known as the 'God of Flowers' and even his portraits frequently have them in. There are a few studies of grapes, but a picture with only fruits seem uncharacteristic.

If you commissioned a picture from Simon Verelst and you wanted a bit more than a simple portrait, his wonderful flowers are what you asked to add, not a fruit bowl, however lascivious. And he doesn't normally seem to produce the sort of 'Get yer tits out for the Gods' mythological pictures that were common at the Restoration court. There's certainly a similarity to his faces here, but that may just be a coincidence.

So this could just be a 19th century confection to make a slightly saucy pseudo-Restoration image that isn't even pretending to be authentic.

Could there be a link between this picture and the poem'The Rape of the Lock' by Swift (1712)? Arabella Fermor the inspiration for the poem was famed for her beauty. Pictures show her with her hair flowing long and loose and it was the theft of a lock of her beautiful hair stolen from her at a social gathering which became the focus of Swift's much admired poem.

Initially well received by Arabella's family it became apparent that Swift's work was not as innocent as it appeared at first sight.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://i1.wp.com/josbd.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Belinda.jpg?resize=200%2C245&imgrefurl=https://www.josbd.com/character-of-belinda-in-the-rape-of-the-lock/&h=245&w=200&tbnid=ItF0HyW11ymlUM&tbnh=245&tbnw=200&usg=AI4_-kRUsqW7iG5M59qe3JTZSUnM0KkGmA&vet=1&docid=lLTqOZbdwy4qfM&hl=en_GB

Regarding the poem 'The Rape of the Lock' above it should of course say by Alexander Pope and not Swift.

Mark, the Brueghels you link are of Ceres herself, not a woman as Ceres. I suppose our picture could be a deliberately archaizing 19th century work, but even then I wouldn't call it pseudo-Restoration, since it looks later than that (meaning late 17th or early 18th century, and I would favor the latter).

One element not so far commented on is the silver dish.

It's undulating, sculptural form is reminiscent of the 'auricular' wares of the van Vianen and Lutma such as the Dolphin Basin in the V&A.

There is a painting dated 1781 showing a woman with a very similar hair style and she is even wearing two small pearl circlets.

https://georgianera.wordpress.com/2016/10/27/was-green-fashionable-in-the-18th-century/

The painting, at the 'All Things Georgian' site, is a miniature of Mrs Russell signed and dated by the outstanding miniaturist John Smart. The image is courtesy of Philip Mould's Historical Portraits.

In the 1780s many women started wearing extreme hairdos reflected in humorous cartoons of the time, but the hair style for Mrs Russell is basically very similar to that of our mystery lady. I suspect the woman in the Erewash painting with her elegant Georgian neck and fair skin is also a portrait of English Lady even if she is in a in a Classical guise.

Checking on the wed virtually every other still life paintings of fruit is displayed in bowls of china. The silver bowl offered for this still life is quite unusual but one thing we know the English cherished at this time was Georgian silver.

A painting auctioned by Sotherby's 7th May 2020, Old Masters lot 57, might be of interest in connection with the painting from the Howitt collection.

The painting is a still life with grapes and figs set on a silver dish similar to the one above. The signed painting was by Herman Verelst 1641 - 1702 an elder brother of Simon Verelst the suggested artist for the painting being discussed. There are some auctioneers notes saying that Herman Verelst was noted earlier in his career for still life paintings depicting fruit set on silver plates.

Despite this I believe the Erewash painting shows a later Georgian lady who is presented in a less formal style than we see with 17th Century portraits. The painting of the grapes and figs also differs.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2020/old-masters-including-portrait-miniatures-from-the-pohl-stroeher-collection/herman-pietersz-verelst-still-life-of-peaches-a

Yes, Howard, the still life could be by Herman Verelst or possibly his brother Simon, and they both painted portraits. I still wonder if either or both of them functioned as still life painters for portraits by other people, something akin to drapery painters, though I suppose a Verelst expert may be hard to come by.

Another fruit piece by Herman Verelst:

https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/peaches-grapes-and-redcurrants-on-a-ledge-224197/view_as/grid/search/makers:herman-verelst-16411702/page/1

This family of artist appears to be more extensive than the Bruegels. Besides Simon and Herman there was a third and younger brother the artist Johan. Then Herman had a daughter Maria and a son named Cornelis who in turn had a son named William Verelst. They all produced quantities of fine paintings.

Maria Verelst 1680-1744, was based in London and produced fine portraits and some still life studies and at least one painting with both. She was also associated with the important early Georgian Scottish artist William Aikman.

Perhaps if the painting is just described as by Verelst this would cover a lot of options! The original founder of the dynasty Pieter Hermansz Verelst had himself produced exceptional portraits earlier in the 17th Century. See Christie's; Old Masters 2nd July 2013 lot 8,

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/pieter-harmensz-verelst-head-study-of-a-5701762-details.aspx

Some more information on the painting itself such as a signature, a rear view or any information about a frame might just be helpful.

I contacted Karen Hearn, the former Curator of 16th & 17thC British Art at Tate Britain. She commented that although it does have "a Simon Verelst-like air in the angle of the head and in the strong lighting" the way the flesh-tones have been painted lacks his usual "polished precision" and the brushwork is looser. However, the "hairstyle and garments look just after 1700 in date". She also believes that its symbolism must surely be erotic and not representative of Ceres, the Roman goddess of grain and agricultural fertility.
The fig does after all have Biblical connotations of the loss of innocence, especially sexual.

I can easily see an erotic element, but woman-as-Ceres would provide respectable cover for the real intent, so that could still have been the official subject or title. I agree that this is most likely Queen Anne period, but dating it as c. 1700 is reasonable enough.

Is this picture painted by a man or a woman. There are some interesting classical historical Georgian paintings by the female artist Angelica Kauffmann.

Kauffman together with another Swiss lady Michael Moser were amongst the founder members of the Royal Academy. Moser had an extraordinary talent for flower paintings but produced few still life paintings depicting fruit.

Kauffmann born around 1741 was regarded as one of the finest classical in Europe. She was particularly fond of Classical themes and making portraits of Ariadne who was abandoned by Theseus.

She produced paintings in a range of different styles and for her painting of Eleanor Countess of Lauderdale combined her portrait with a good still life of a reef of flowers. But the Erewash portrait has a woman whose curls are more open than the dense style typical of Emma Hamilton's time suggesting that the Art UK portrait was painted earlier.

The Royal Academy was due to hold an exhibition of Angelica's work from June to September 2020 but it had to be cancelled due to problems with lockdown and covid-19.

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/portrait-of-eleanor-countess-of-lauderdale-angelica-kauffmann/8QH97uSQfivysw

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/portrait-of-eleanor-countess-of-lauderdale-angelica-kauffmann/8QH97uSQfivysw

Howard, this is too early for Kauffmann.

Could our sitter be Mary Somerset-Duchess Ormonde.?
https://www.thepeerage.com/e11120.htm

Louis, it seems highly unlikely that a duchess would have herself portrayed this way, essentially like a courtesan--unless, perhaps, we were talking about one of the mistresses of Charles II whom were made duchesses by him, and we are not.

*who* were made duchesses, obviously.

While I cannot identify the sitter, I’d like to suggest that the painter is the same painter who created “Portrait of a Lady”, which, as Jacinto had noted on that discussion (02/12/2020 14:52) was also a (Charles Sydney) Howitt 1918 bequest.
https://www.artuk.org/artdetective/discussions/discussions/is-this-portrait-dutch-or-english-who-is-the-sitter

Note the dress in this painting is the exact same green as the dress shown in the improved resolution photo of “Portrait of a Lady” provided by Marion (08/10/2018 11:23) in that discussion.
https://d3d00swyhr67nd.cloudfront.net/_source/dby-erm-ilkem-howitt-bequest-6-copy.jpg

Perhaps this portrait was painted first - it was possibly the painter’s wife - and the second portrait could have been painted many years later (and his wife asked to be painted in a similar green dress). In my opinion, it would be extremely unlikely to hold in one’s art collection two paintings of women in similar colour green dresses.

Hello Erewash Borough Council,

In 2020, Kate, the Erewash Museum Collections Officer at the time, was going to look into getting photographs of the back and the frame. Might that be possible now please?

An automatic reply says that the person who took over from Kate has also left the collection. I'll try to find someone to help.

Here is a composite based on a portrait that was in a Christie's auction in 2014.

https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-5815595

"Circle of Henri Gascars (Paris c. 1635-1701 Rome)
Portrait of a lady, bust-length, in a white chemise and red wrap"

I don't think we are going to get any further in the time left available for Art Detective. The consensus seems to be that it probably French (or English) c.1700. It is unlikely to depict Ceres or even a lady in the role of Ceres, but is merely a decorative 'fancy picture.'