Completed British 19th C, except portraits, British 20th C, except portraits 71 Did Edwin Steele (1861–1933) paint this still life of flowers and fruit?

STF_STKMG_1962_FA_34
Topic: Artist

The artist's death date is 1898, however this painting is clearly signed 1899. The signature appears to match other works by E. Steele including this one signed and dated 1901: https://bit.ly/3iisx0A

Julia DeFabo, Entry reviewed by Art UK

Completed, Outcome

This discussion is now closed. This still life painting of flowers and fruit has been attributed to Edwin Steele (1839–1919, referred to below as ‘Edwin junior’). Biographies of Edwin junior and his father Edwin Steele (1803/1805–1871, ‘Edwin senior’) have been added to Art UK. Many other flower and fruit paintings attributed to ‘Edwin Steele’ on Art UK were also considered; some suggested reattributions have been accepted, while others are still awaiting a response.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to the discussion. To anyone viewing this discussion for the first time, please see below for all the comments that led to this conclusion.

70 comments

Mark Wilson,

This does seem to be a well-known problem in the antiques trade. There actually appear to be three of them:

"There were several Edwin Steeles painting in the 19th century. One whose dates were 1803-1871 would appear to have been primarily a landscape artist. Another whose dates are listed as 1837-1898 seems to be confused with and often listed as this artist since examples of his work are obviously from the same hand with the same signature “E. Steele”. Unfortunately there seems to be no biographical information available although he was a prolific and competent artist. His works are still lifes of flowers or fruit often incorporating pineapples, grapes and apples."

(https://www.studioantiques.net/items/1246455/Edwin-Steele-British-1850-after-1912)

So we may well have ES1 (1803-1871); ES2 (1837-1898) and ES3 (1861-1933). From the dates they could easily be three generations of the same family.

Another site selling a pair of pictures notes:

"A fine pair of oils on canvas depicting fruit against a mossy, ferny bank typical of the still life painter of the Victorian period. The paintings are by Edwin Steele who as well as a prolific oil painter was a porcelain painter in the nineteenth century, he seems to have worked for Rockingham but there may well have been several of the family with the same name working"

(https://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/435960/pair-of-victorian-still-life-oil-paintings-by-edwin-steele/)

Though the Rockingham connection may also include ES1 as the V&A has a vase from c 1825 of his (http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O332573/vase-steele-edwin/).

There are nine works ascribes to ES2 on ArtUK and four to ES1 (all in collections in the Midlands). At first glance, both sets may contain works from all three Edwins and several under ES2 are dated after his death.

Heather Phillips,

We are offering for sale this quite large still life oil on canvas by the artist E. Steele, who has signed the painting in the lower right hand corner and dated it 1900. The painting depicts two bunches of white grapes, one bunch of purple grapes, a melon, three apples and a cut lemon, framed by some vine leaves.

This artist is the same person referred to as Edwin Steele on the auction sites, but with incorrect dates of either 1803-1871, or 1837-1898. As there are quite a few paintings shown on these sites with dates post 1900, the most recent being 1918, and obviously the work of the same artist, it is quite clear that these dates are wrong. Having done some research online and found the Rockingham china and porcelain patter book, we have found that Edwin Steele was a painter and enamaller at this factory, but his dates are 1805-1871 and he was the son of Thomas Steel who was also an artist at the factory before his son. Thomas Steel moved back to Staffordshire to work at the Minton factory, taking his son with him and they lived in Stoke on Trent. As there is an Edwin J. Steele who was born in 1861 in Stoke on Trent and who died in 1933 in Birmingham, which fits with the dates on the paintings, we believe that it is this Edwin who painted this painting and he was Edwin's son. There is one painting listed on artprice with a date of 1849, but this is in an earlier style and is probably the work of the earlier Edwin.

He is know as a painter of fruit and flowers, although there are some landscapes listed. He was quite a prolific painter, although he did not appear to exhibit, as there are no biographical details listed in our reference books, which are drawn from exhibition records.

This is a segment from the biography I formed for this artist after doing research on findmypast etc.

Heather, thank you for sharing your research on the Steele (Steel?) family, indicating three generations: a grandfather, Thomas Steel [sic?] (no dates); father Edwin Steele (1805–1871); son Edwin J. Steele (1861–1933).

Jacinto Regalado,

So do the dates 1837-1898 belong to yet another Steele?

The source is Ancestry, for those who can access it.

Edwin H. Steele (links to many source records): https://bit.ly/364d0hX
BIRTH JUL 1839 • Hanley, Staffordshire, England
DEATH DEC 1919 • Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

His son was Edwin James Steele (who was married in 1883, see attachment): https://bit.ly/3ctQcJC
BIRTH ABT 1861 • Hanley, Staffordshire, England
DEATH JUN 1933 • Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

But Edwin H. Steele's father was also called Edwin Steele: https://bit.ly/3kFzSrX
BIRTH ABT 1807 • Burslem, Staffordshire, England
DEATH JUL 1871 • Staffordshire, United Kingdom

And in turn, his father was Thomas Steele (spelling varies at this time in records): https://bit.ly/3kHzEAq
There are no dates for him on these records – his name is recorded as the father on Edwin (b.1807)'s baptism.

The three Edwins are all recorded as painters or artists in various censuses and marriage records. But hopefully that's clearer on the dates (and useful to name them with no middle initial, middle initial H and middle name James, to distinguish them).

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Jacinto Regalado,

That means that the dated Steele pictures on Art UK could have been done by either Edwin H. or his son Edwin James, based on date alone, though they are currently listed under Edwin Steele (1837-1898), who may or may not really be Edwin H. Steele (1838-1919).

I suppose we need to see or at least know the exact signatures and dates (if present) for all Steele still lifes on Art UK, and go from there.

Jacinto Regalado,

All Steele still lifes on Art UK appear to be signed E. Steele. The two Wolverhampton pictures are dated (which does not appear in their Art UK entries), and it seems the dates both begin with 19 (higher res images would help).

Jacinto Regalado,

For what it's worth, Artnet lists 100 pictures under "Edwin Steele" with vital dates of 1850-after 1912. The listings with images are almost all still lifes, with two dog pictures, a landscape and a seascape.

There is clearly general confusion as to which Steele and which dates.

Jacinto Regalado,

I expect that sorting this out is going to require genealogical and census data, which is not my forte, but there are others here who are much better at that kind of work.

Jacinto Regalado,

The V&A has nine Rockingham ceramic pieces dated between 1825 and 1830 which were painted by Edwin Steele, whose dates are given as 1803-1871. They are all painted with flowers only, no fruits:

https://bit.ly/2FK0b1x

Jacinto Regalado,

There are a total of 15 Steele still lifes on Art UK. Nine are in vertical format and 6 in horizontal format. This one and four other very similar pictures involving a flower vase and fruits on a marble tabletop certainly seem to be by the same hand, as does one with a fruit vase and loose flowers on a marble top in the same style. Two (paired?) pictures depict only clusters of grapes still on the vine. Two are still lifes (one floral, one fruits) in an outdoor setting. The remaining 5 are 2 floral, 1 fruit and 2 mixed still lifes, and two of these (below) seem somewhat more crudely or primitively painted than all the rest, so they could be by a different hand:

https://bit.ly/301JKo8

https://bit.ly/3csQVuC

Mark Wilson,

Heather's latest work on the family tree reinstates the idea of three generations of Edwins, which I think is more plausible, giving us four generations:

Thomas Steel(e) (nd)
Edwin Steele (?1807-1871)
Edwin H Steele (1839-1919)
Edwin J Steele (1861-1933)

As it happens it turns out that a lot more work on this family has been done already this year by Teresa Coutinho posting on another discussion board, most recently:

https://ask.bidtoart.com/question/e-steele-water-colour-and-gouache-painting-is-this-painting-authentic-or-a-copy/#comment-236

though many of her comments on that thread are relevant. The revised lineage appears to be

Thomas Steel (1771-1850)
Edwin Steele (1803/05-1871)
Edwin H Steele (1839-2 Dec 1919)
Edward James Steele (1861-1933)

The latter was actually named as above, but may possibly have been known as Edwin (I've known this happen with family names). In addition Thomas had another son Horatio (1806-1874) who like his father only appears to have worked on ceramics (the V&A again has examples).

Teresa Coutinho was also in touch with Minton, for whom various members of the family worked, and they sent her copies of the pages of a book giving details of the lives of the first three plus Horatio (linked in Google Docs in comment above). The uncertainty over Edwin's birth date is explained by his not being baptised, along with another brother, and later in the same year Horatio, until 1807. The book also gives examples of Edwin's and Edwin H's (who are referred to as 'senior' and 'junior') signatures.

The book is obviously biased towards ceramic work, but it notes that by 1901 Edwin H is describing himself as an 'Artist in Oils' (in the previous census he was a 'Flower and Fruit Pottery Painter') so it looks as if the balance of his production changed in the 1890s.

Jacinto Regalado,

Coutinho more or less says that the still life painter was Edwin H Steele. We know his father was a porcelain painter, though he may have been more than that. But what about Edward J Steele? What was his profession?

Osmund Bullock,

Unfortunately Teresa Coutinho's research conclusions are not wholly reliable. As well as being clearly wrong about her watercolour being C19th, she is also wrong about Edwin/Edward James Steele, though that's more understandable. Spending £11 on a birth certificate doesn't, alas, tell you what you learn from 40 years of doing genealogy: GRO certificates of BM&D can sometimes be wrong, and censuses & other sources right!

In this case Edwin James was either registered wrongly as "Edward" - perhaps misheard - or the detail was misread when the info was sent from the local register office up to the GRO in London. The evidence is conclusive: he was born on 13th March 1861, and in the Census taken three weeks later (7th April) his name is recorded as Edwin (see attached), i.e. five days *before* the birth was registered on the 12th. On 3rd August 1862 the boy was christened at Holy Trinity Northwood (Stoke-on-Trent) as Edwin James (also attached). In subsequent Censuses of 1871, 1881, 1901 and 1911, at his marriage to Emily Cambridge at Birmingham in 1883, in electoral rolls for Ladywood, B'ham 1921-31 and in his death & burial records at B'ham in 1933, he is always Edwin James or Edwin J, once just Edwin, but never "Edward". The only exception is the 1901 Census where he is just "James", which suggest he may indeed have had a family name (to distinguish him from his father?) ...but Edward it was not.

Osmund Bullock,

However the book extracts shown by Ms Coutinho are very interesting, though the third one is far more accurate than the second (which should be largely ignored). There's more to write about them, with some further details and corrections, along with observations from myriad census and baptism records, etc, which inform and clarify matters considerably. I hope I'll get to posting more of that later. But it is looking increasingly likely that our artist is indeed Edwin Steele II (1839-1919), father of Edwin James - unless I am going mad, though, I can find no record that he ever had any middle name or intitial (H or otherwise). I wonder where the Ancestry profiler (who is accurate about most things) got that from? Oh, hang on...I bet it's the stupid modern habit of putting the I / II / III to differentiate generations *between* the first and last names - it often causes confusion, especially with a single 'I'. The tree compiler has somewhere read Edwin II Steele, and read it as "Edwin H Steele".

Jacinto Regalado,

Osmund, what book extracts are you referring to, or rather, where are they? No doubt I've overlooked something, so please clarify.

Osmund Bullock,

If you follow Mark's link (https://bit.ly/3i43EoK) to the discussion forum where Teresa Coutinho has been posting, and scroll down to the bottom, you'll find three different links to Google Drive files that show pages from three different books that mention the Steel(e) family. I found the way they were arranged on the PDFs a bit tricky, so I've turned them into four simple JPGs which I attach. I've deduced the titles of the first two books, but the third (which has the fullest and most accurate info) remains unknown.

Though it's not very relevant to our research, I can confirm from census and baptism / marriage / burial records that all the movements to and from different factories given in the third book are correct. What is very relevant are the images shown of the signatures of both Edwin I (bap 1807 d.1871) & his son Edwin II (1839-1919) - both of them use the cursive capital 'E' seen in our painting. However, I have found examples of the signature of Edwin James (1861-1933) in documents that show he did too. And to complicate things still further, Edwin James had a younger brother Ernest Augustus (1868-1937), who like his brother, father and grandfather was also an 'enamel painter', and who *also* signed with the cursive 'E'!

Jacinto Regalado,

Besides Edwin II, were any of the others more than painters for ceramic ware? Some "E. Steele" pictures look clearly less accomplished than ours, and I suspect were not by Edwin II.

Christine Lawton,

We have an oil painting signed Edwin Steele. It was hanging in our house many decades ago, when my great uncle and aunt paid their only visit to London from the Potteries. My great uncle, who was not my blood relation, looked at the painting and immediately told us who it was by: his great uncle, Edwin Steele, who exhibited at the Liverpool Royal Academy. It is quite a large picture of fruit and flowers on a stone slab and some of the fruit is cascading down from a carved stone urn type vase. It is extremely accomplished. I believe also that Edwin Steele used to paint on pottery and I read somewhere that he used to paint at Crown Derby but I'm not sure whether that is correct. The style of his paintings would certainly fit in with hand painted pottery.

Jacinto Regalado,

Steele transferred his work as a ceramics painter to canvas, but the style and feel remain the same. There is nothing painterly about it, though it precise and crisp, but essentially decorative illustration

S. Elin Jones,

Two notifications were published in the Staffordshire newspapers of the mid 1860’s. These were announcements from the County Courts (Hanley).

In the Staffordshire Advertiser, Saturday, March 3rd, 1866 it was reported that Edwin Steele, china painter, had been summond to attend the court, charged with neglect of work.

It was heard that Edwin Steele was summond by G. H. Allen, china manufacturer of Hanley for ‘neglect of work’ but concluded,

“...there had been no definate engagement between the defendent and Mr Allen either as to period of service or notice to leave, and the case was consequently dismissed”.

The Staffordshire Sentinel, Saturday, October 26, 1867 reported in an article headed ‘An “ARTIST” in TROUBLE’ that Edwin Steele had been working for Mr John Aynsley, manufacturer, of china, Hanley, for four years, but had been summond for neglect of work.

The article states that he had left on June 6th, 1867 and had not been back since. Edwin Steele had already been paid 18d to paint a dessert service, but had left it unfinished and had not returned, leaving the work incomplete.

Mr Steele “denied in court that he was bound to work for the plaintive by any verbal or written agreement, as he was an ‘artist’” and he would not bind himself to work for any individual, as he believed that his talents belonged to the country at large.”

Despite this claim, Mr Steele had worked for Mr Aynsley’s company for four years and it was also mentioned that had designed for other companies. He was ordered to pay a pound, plus costs, back to the firm.

It could be presumed that this Mr Steele was the second born Edwin Steele, but I do however wonder whether it may actually be an account related to Edwin Steele sen., rather than it being about the son in his mid twenties.

The second article in particular seems to suggest that Mr Steele is someone who is established. That he’s relatively well paid, with the ability of working freelance for various companies. Even though the firm in the second article had taken the gentleman to court, there still seems to be an unusual amount of respect for the artist. It also mentions the company was
“anxious to retain him, as he was a very skilled artizan.”

I doubt whether his son would have had an opportunity to have developed such skills and working relationships, at such an early point in his career. The appearances in Court also straddle a period of time in which Charlotte, his wife of nearly 40 yrs, died. She died in early May of 1866.

I feel that despite his bold statements in court, it’s possible that these may have been the actions of a man struggling to cope with issues in his personal life. Possibly having to deal with an illness, and eventually coping with a death. It seems a little odd for a person who has spent a lifetime working professionally for various establishments, to walk out on a fully paid job, just because he could, just because he was an “Artist”.

It’s also written that he
“devoted a portion of his time to painting in oil”.
It’s hardly surprising than any artist specialising in enamel painting would also be an oil painter, considering the transferable skills needed for both, and the amount of design work included in their job. It seems pretty obvious that the person that painted this painting was an enamel artist. The green foliage and vegetable in particular stand out. It may also be worth considering that once an enamel artist lose access to a kiln, they may also lose access to their primary artistic outlet.

Incidently, Edwin Steele sen was also one of three sons of Thomas Steele that apprenticed in Derby. As well as Edwin and Horatio, there was Thomas jr. He painted for Coalport before dying at a relatively young age.

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Osmund Bullock,

Yes, I'm sure Edwin Steele senr was the man who declined to finish the work he'd already started and been paid for in 1867, and who was in court on a similar summons the previous year. Apart from anything else, it is possible Edwin Junr was by then working as a glass enameller in Smethwick (where he is found in 1871). It is also very plausible that his wife's death in 1866 had at the very least caused Edwin Senr to reflect on how he wanted to spend his remaining years as an artist - and of course with only one mouth now to feed, the pressure to stick to his substantive, highly-skilled employment was that much less. He seems to have been achieving at least some success as a painter, too - see attached (the address given there is the same as in the 1871 Census, where he seems to have been living as a lodger).

However, it is worth noting that although he is recorded as a China Painter when three of his children were baptised in 1826, 1832 & 1835, by the 1841 Census he is called - presumably at his request - just 'Artist', and so he remains in 1851 & 1861. So I tend to think that his strong desire to be considered a freelance artist, not a journeyman decorator beholden to others, was long-standing, though doubtless brought to a head by the huge change in his life.

Though this is all most interesting, it is in truth largely irrelevant to the question we're seeking to answer. Edwin Senr died later in 1871 (apparently unrecorded by the press, unlike both his father and wife); our painting is dated 1899. So the one person it cannot be by is Edwin Senr. It still remains unproven, though highly probable, that it is by Edwin Junr (1839-1919), rather than one of *his* two sons Edwin James (1861-1933) and Ernest Augustus (1868-1937).

Jacinto Regalado,

I would propose that two pictures currently listed under Edwin Steele (1803-1971) are probably not by Edwin Snr and almost certainly not by Edwin Jnr (assuming he was the painter of our picture and others in very similar style). That leaves the two sons of Edwin Jnr:

https://bit.ly/38hSb3I

https://bit.ly/3mW3cvp

I think it is now worth trying to link these Steele paintings together into groups based on painting style and the form of the signature, and following the excellent new biographical information we now have, make some judgement on the likely artist(s).

First, there is the group of six still lives with vases on marble shelves, and usually with marble columns. These must be by the same hand and are signed E Steele. Three are dated 1896 and 1899. Wolverhampton Art Gallery’s own website gives dates for their two of 1889 (OP725) and 1908 (OP724).

Apart from the cursive ‘E’, which Osmund found appears to be common to the signatures of all generations of the Steeles, there is I believe also a distinctive ‘S’ (the rather square form and varied stroke thickness) and ‘t’ (long cross stroke high up) in the signature. This can be identified in the hanging grapes (Potteries Museum 1962.FA.33), dated 1899, and its companion (1954.FA.125). It is also found in the Potteries Museum flowers and fruit still life (1958.FA.100) dated 1901 and in the fruit with a naturalistic background (1962. FA.32).

Of the other paintings attributed to the spurious Edwin Steele (1837-1898), Potteries Museum 1950.FA.95 is apparently unsigned. Despite the heavily discoloured varnish, it seems to me slightly better quality than the average Edwin Steele, but it did come as part of the same Bagnall gift as three others, which is a point in favour of the attribution.

Of the paintings on Art UK under Edwin Steele (1803-1871), Derby’s 1975-228/1 has the same signature as those above. It fits the more naturalistic approach of Potteries 1950.FA.95, 1958.FA.100 and 1962.FA.32. Derby’s 975-228/2, although Jacinto doubts its quality, I think is good enough and has the right signature to be accepted with those above. Royal Crown of Derby’s 2004.27.130, on the other hand, cannot be by the same artist. What can be seen of the signature is unconvincing too. Regarding Keele’s 1997/096, it is hard to make out either the painting quality or the form of the signature.

So, with the exception of the last two, I am fairly convinced that all the others are be the same artist, a ceramics decorator of the Steele family working on his account. We have dated paintings ranging from 1889-1908. Other comparable paintings online are dated from 1868 to 1918. These dates fit very neatly into the life span of Edwin Steele Junr (1839-1919).

Martin Hopkinson,

Should we accept Andrew Greg' s very helpful outline of the Steeles and propose an attribution to Edwin Steele junior unless a scholar of Royal Crown Derby can suggest that this is wrong?

What's the last word of his 1911 occupation above: 'Painter of Fruit on ???...ers' . Looks precarious if he became a '[? something] Porter' for a 'manufacturing jeweller' by the time he was 60 on 1921 and I wonder what happened to Mrs EJS: looks like that didn't last.

Osmund Bullock,

I agree with Marcie's (singular) reading, though it hardly matters either way.

You're quite right about the 'H' initial, Marcie - I don't know how I missed that, especially as I have the family's 1871 census page saved and annotated in my Steele folder!

It remains true, however, that it's not just his 1839 civil birth registration (or at least its index) that records no middle name or initial: it's apparently not in the civil record of his marriage to Elizabeth Walker in 1859 either (I can't find a church wedding), it's not given in the baptism record of his eldest child Edwin James in Aug 1862 (see 25/09/2020 09:11), none of the seven other censuses 1841-1911 show one for him (1911 being signed by the man himself), and neither does his civil death record of 1919 Q4. Moreover none of his siblings are shown with middle initials in censuses, at least not when they were children (I haven't followed them after they left home), in contrast to his own children whose middle names/initials are recorded many times.

Where does that leave us? With nothing else at all to support it, I still think it was probably an error by the 1871 census enumerator, and that we should continue to refer to him as just 'Edwin Steele Junr'. It's a pity no baptism record for him has emerged.

Marcie Doran,

Thanks for the information, Osmund. Yes, I agree with you. The ‘H’ was likely an error.

Edwin James Steele (1861-1933) called himself a 'Painter' when he married in 1883 but a 'Porter' in the 1921 census when he was either separated from his wife or she was absent.

What sort of 'painter' and for how long?

Don't spend time on the last question: answer is

Edwin junior’s son, Edwin James Steele (b. 1861), was described as a ‘China Painter’ in the 1881 census, when still living with his parents at 57 Peel Street, Hanley, and a ‘Painter’, when he married Emily Cambridge, daughter of William, a tailor, on 10 September 1883 at St Mark’s, Birmingham. Report of the 1891 census gives his occupation then as ‘Enamel Painter’ and in that of 1911 he was a bedstead ‘Ornamenter’ lodging at 205 King Edward’s Road, Ladywood, Birmingham. By 1921 he had moved to no. 147 and was a ‘Porter’ for a Birmingham manufacturing jeweller. He remained on the Ladywood electoral roll until 1931 and his death was registered in Birmingham in April 1933.

Kieran Owens,

I believe his occupation in the 1921 Census reads as "Out Porter", the Out part having been added at a later time than the Porter (they are in different darknesses of ink), possibly by the Census enumerator or later at the Census checking stage.

Osmund Bullock,

Pieter, if you're working up a multi-person biog for the Steel(e)s, I have numerous primary evidence documents 1772-1921 saved for most of the family from Thomas Steel through to his gt-grandson Edwin James Steele, including censuses. Would it be helpful if I posted everything I've got - perhaps organised as a series of pdfs? You've clearly got a lot already for EJS, but there may be holes, e.g. the 1901 Census when he was in Birmingham - at least I think it's him - and his profession is given as 'Enameler [Silver?] Plate'. Attached.

Kieran Owens,

Osmund, was not Steele (b. 1861) born in Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire? Your 1901 Census extract for the enameler shows that he was born in Birmingham, Warwickshire, and in 1863, and not 1861. This 1901 fellow is possibly unrelated to the family a

Kieran Owens,

..t the centre of this discussion.

If I read Andrew Greg's note of 11/11/2020 13.04 correctly, his conclusion is that all the oils on Art UK are likely to be by Edwin Steele junior (1839-1919) with the exception of

Royal Crown Derby's 2004.27.130 (https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/still-life-with-fruit-61500) and

Keele University's 1997/096 (https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/roses-18782)

In the latter case he expressed no view, though the subject looks very like Derby Museum's's 1975-228/2 (https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/fruit-still-life-61053)
which - if he is otherwise right - would be by Edwin junior, not his father as currently attributed.

By that analysis it looks as though only RCD's 2004.27.130 may be by the father rather than the son. It is up to the collections (primarily Keele and Derby Museum) to decide what, if anything, they wish to adjust in the way of attributions, but the thing clearly wrong with everything in the Potteries Museum is the artist dates. Any 'E. Steele' after 1871 is the younger man (1839-1919) and, since everything there appears to be by the same hand, the vital dates need to change.

This is just a prompt to suggest that someone needs to wrap this discussion up.

There was no Edwin Steele with dates of 1837-98 and there is no evidence that Edwin James Steele, 1861-1933, did anything but decorative painting/enamelling on pottery and other domestic items. Family summary attached.

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Osmund Bullock,

Kieran, re your question (25/04/2023 20:57), Edwin Jas Steele was indeed born in Hanley, not Birmingham, on 13 March 1861; his age in the census taken on 31 March 1901 should have been 40, not 38; his surname should have been spelled Steele rather than Steel; his wife was called Emily, not Emma as in the census...and worst of all, Edwin Steel in the census is stated as being Single, ditto the Emma Steel who was living with him (so on the face of it, more likely to be his sister), while our Edwin & Emily had been married since 1883.

However, I can see no other remotely possible candidates for EJS and/or his wife in the 1901 Census; nor can I find in other censuses or elsewhere any possible siblings or other married couples called Edwin & Emma (or indeed Emily) Steel(e) both born in B'ham whose existence would support there being such a pair living in 1901. But the final evidence for me that they are our couple Edwin Jas & Emily Steele is geographical.

Attached is a partial map of north Ladywood. On it I've marked (in red) where we know Edwin James & Emily were married/ lived in 1883 & 1891, and where he lived in 1911 & 1921; and (in green) where the questionable Edwin & Emma lived in 1901. It's such a tight grouping (just 7-8 minutes' walk across) that I'm now convinced it's the same couple.

All of which is a very large hammer to crack a small and peripheral nut. But it does mean that if I'm right we can identify an intermediate stage (enamelling silver) in his professional descent from painting on fine porcelain to ornamenting iron bedsteads - this presumably in the face of a terminal decline in the demand for hand-decorated china, a skill in which his family had excelled since his gt-grandfather Thomas was apprenticed at Wedgwood in 1787. One might also guess that the manufacturing jeweller who gave him his final, rather sad employment as a porter (the Quarter is nearby) may well have been a contact from his earlier work in the silver trade.

Osmund Bullock,

For good measure I suspect EJS and his 1921 housekeeper Ethel Banks were actually an 'item', he and his wife having parted at some point between 1901 & 1911. Ethel was the sister of his 1911 landlady Dora Banks in King Edward's Rd, but by 1921 Dora had moved away or died, and he and Ethel had moved a hundred yards down the road (or perhaps not if the road numbering had changed).

Thomas Steele, married Suzanne Taylor

Edwin Steele (Senior) was married to Charlotte Steele, Formerly Kirk
On his death Certificate states that he died in 1871 and he was 64 years old, so he was born in 1807. He was a prolific painter. That said Edwin Steele Senior was able not only to paint flowers, but sceneries of the sea, mountains and so on.

Edwin Steele (Junior) The famous flower painter was born in 1839 in Shelton in the County of Stafford, and died in Birmingham in 1919. Who guessed the year of his death it was myself, because when I called Stoke on Trent to investigate the year of his death, in Stoke on Trent they asked me for finding out the year of his death, you have to give us the year he died. So I thought, I read on a website that the last painting there was of the flower painter had the date 1918, so he died 1919. And my guess was "absolutely" right. The lady said now you can order the painter's death certificate, but you have to contact Birmingham's registration office, which I did immediately, and it was sent his death certificate a few days later.
Who was present to witness death registration, was his son Edward James Steele, who lived in King Edwards Road.

"Edward" James Steele was born in 1861, in Birmingham. His father was Edwin Steele Junior, and his mother was Elizabeth Steele, formerly Walker.

Who denies what I wrote here above, it is the same thing as to deny that the astronauts never landed on the moon.

I have a painting Signed by Edwin Steele (Senior) The painting is called Shipping in the Thames Estuary. I have no shroud of a doubt that the painting belong to the painter in question. I had the painting for about 3 years in Find Art information, and nobody could show me evidence I was wrong. Circa 4000 people saw the painting on the site, and on the Bid for Art another 2000 people saw my painting as well. Some "art amateurs" wanted to proof me wrong, but were unable to do so.

I am not saying the painting is of Edwin Steele ( Senior) because I want to become rich if I sell the painting. I am not intending to sell the painting, because I grew attached to it, and besides, a painting who has a piece of art of his quality in the Victoria and Albert Museum, cannot be sold for peanuts. I am not silly for selling a painting of this quality of £3000.00. I prefer to be poor and to keep the painting for me.

I could have already investigated in a auction House the value of the painting, but as I see people unwilling to accept a true fact, I prefer to keep it for myself.

Maria Teresa Reynolds de Abreu Coutinho

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Sorry I forgot to answer your question above. The person who painted the Gorgeous painting above, was Edwin Steele ( Junior) born in 1839 and died in 1919 in Birmingham. Most of the paintings signed and with the date of the painting belong to Edwin Steele Junior. It was because of the date his paintings have, I was able to find the year the artist died.

The person who was born in 1861 and died in Birmingham in 1933 was Edward James Steele.

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Edwin Steele (senior, d.1871), son of Thomas Steel, married Charlotte Laban in Derby in 1826. The register entry was provided by S. Elin Jones above (02/11/2020 17:18) and though he was still then using the 'Steel' rather than 'Steele' spelling, the fact that his brother Horatio (1806-74) was a witness pins the identity down: so does the location, given that the family were ceramic painters and Thomas's sons were all apprenticed in the Derby works. Mark Wilson (24/09/2020 17:14) supplied the likely birth date of Edwin (senior) as 1803/5 and that he was baptised late, with Horatio, in 1807.

We have seen evidence that he was reported a late-life painter on canvas (under the same contribution by S. Elin Jones) but the one example of which there is report (Osmund Bullock, 03/11/2020 02:10) is a 'Fruit and flowers' piece. Of these, his son Edwin junior (1839-1919) seems to have done many more.

We have - as far as I can see - had no documentation about the Edwin Steele whom Maria Teresa Reynolds De Abreu Coutinho reports as having married Charlotte Kirk and dying in 1871, aged 64 (so born in 1807). This appears to be a different man, with no connection to the Steel(e) family of ceramic/flower painters.

Clearly there are mid- to late-19th century landscapes signed 'E. Steele' and a man of that name also exhibited a view of Hastings beach at the SBA in 1836. Maria Teresa's late-19th or very early 20th-century watercolour (two entries above) of Thames barges and other shipping, probably in the Thames estuary, also bears an 'E. Steele' signature, but its style -and that of the various 'E.Steele' oil landscapes visible on the web - do not suggest any connection with either of the 'Edwin Steele' fruit and flower painters, father or son.

Steele is a fairly common name and how many 'E. Steeles' were painters unresolvable.

The Thames barges drawing may well be someone who knew the relatively early etched work of W.L.Wyllie, which he was publishing from the mid-1880s. This example is likely to be pre-1906:

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-126310

The balance of evidence as regards the painting under discussion is that, like most if not all those listed on Art UK, it is by Edwin junior (1839-1919), but that is for someone else to review and conclude on to wrap this matter up.

Pieter-Van-Der-Merwe
I am extremely pleased and grateful you took the time to reply to the message I put above.
I was not only diligent in the work I did regarding the family Steele who worked for the Rockingham Potteries, but also meticulous too.
Besides, as I above said I had the E. Steele (senior) painting in Find Art Information for about 2, 3 years, and also in Bid to Art website for about exactly the same time. It is a lot of time and a few members also contested my claim, but they didn’t convince me I am wrong. However, I enjoyed to have their different opinions about the painting, and they helped me to be more confident in what I am saying here below.
I am going here below to reply to each point you mentioned on your statement:
• 1st Thomas Steele married Suzanne Taylor, I have learned about it, in the Genealogy group members, to which I belong on the Facebook platform.
• Edwin Steele (Senior), born in 1803, or 05, was married to Charlotte Kirk, I am putting here the birth certificate of Edwin (Junior) in which is written the name of the mother as above mentioned and the profession of the father as China Painter. You are absolutely right, I also read online that Edwin was baptised late, and with his brother Horatio.

Very likely Ann Clark, the informant of Edwin Steele Senior’s death, did not know the exactly the date of his birth and therefore, the lady said 64 years old, but Edwin could have been older. Very likely Ann Clark did not have proof of his birth date.

• I don’t actually know who painted more, but the idea I have is that Edwin Steele (Senior), while working for the Rockingham Pottery, painted mostly flowers and fruits, but he was able to paint many other subjects. I am sending evidence here of that. And I saw many other subjects painted with his signature.

• Edwin (Junior) who was born in 1839 and died in 1919, the famous flower painter. I am under the impression, he painted mostly flowers and fruits. I didn’t see any other subject among his paintings.

• I would like to add to this information, that the whole family while working for the Rockingham Pottery, their surname was always “Steel” without the “e”.

• I bought the book “The Rockingham Pottery” New Revised Edition. I was advised to buy it by the Stoke and Trent Library representative. I bought on Ebay.

• As for what concerns my painting, shipping in the Thames Estuary, by E. Steele (Senior), it was not myself who gave the name to the painting, but the “Crows Auction Gallery”. The Crows Auction Gallery, was selling a very bad print of my painting, in 2018. If the painting I have, was easy to paint, the copy someone did pretending to be E. Steele, would be really good, but I find a really bad print. I am posting here evidence of this very bad copy.

I am still confident that my painting is of E. Steele (Senior), because in Find Art Information website, there are signatures, of Edwin Steele (Senior), (Junior), and of Edward Steele. The one of my painting, is a close match not only to some of his paintings signature, but also to the signature find art information website, has for this artist. Besides, if you notice, Edwin Steele’s junior signatures, are very similar to each other, but they aren’t equal 100%. For that I maintain, my painting belong to the father not the son.

In regard to the barges, or tugs, I also requested information from a website online specialised in all sorts of barges, tugs and so on. I also include my research about it.
With it I end my reply to your kind message to me.

More information regarding the message above:

A very bad print of someone claiming to be E. Steele,
https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/74dbd64dc0dd0d70d3f2b2cca3bb9aa9/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/antiques-collectors-interior-sale-lot-313/

It is an early 1900's watercolour harbour scene, Signed Edwin Steele. A very bad painting, I cannot compare with mine too.

These paintings by E. Steele (Senior) you can find them in Find Art Information:
Paintings by Edwin Steele (Senior) Its Names:

1. Backwater on the Thames and Goring-on-Thames
2. Hounds and Fox
3. Rural landscape with horse and cart approaching a bridge
4. Sheeps in Pasture
5. Still life of fruit on a ledge

Two of them I am adding here to this message:

file:///E:/E STEELE/E STEELE PAINTINGS/Paintings of sheeps in Pasture E Steele father.jpg

file:///E:/E STEELE/E STEELE PAINTINGS/Landscape E Steele father.jpg

Second Email received by Dave, in regard of the Tugs on the painting:
To:'Maria Coutinho'
Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 16:57
Hello again Maria
I can’t really comment on which E Steele you are looking for but I have found a photo of a tug built in 1870 that is similar to that shown on your picture. I am NOT suggesting that this is the tug but that similar tugs would have been built around that time. Many tugs earlier than this would have been driven by paddle wheels, one on each side of the tug, whereas this one is driven by a screw propeller at the stern. If you were looking for 1860 as the date then there would have been very few screw tugs around.
I hope that this helps.
Best regards
Dave

E Steele (Senior) died only in 1871.

I have learned something more while I had the painting on Find Art Information website in regard to the copy of the Shipping in the Thames Estuary, which is: I have learned it is classed under the name “antiques and collectables” and it has got a name, which is “Shipping in the Thames Estuary".

This is for the time being whole about E Steele ( Senior) and his relatives.





Thanks for those: so the documentation shows the surname of Edwin Steele senior's wife to have been Laban (at marriage in Derby, 1826) and 'formerly Kirk' when Edwin junior was born in 1839.

Albeit lacking current explanation (the usual one being a prior marriage, in this case not noted) that at least means we are dealing with just one couple not two.

The fact that Edwin (senior) is recorded as a painter at all, even with often erroneous dates, is probably why anything signed 'E. Steele' in the way of landscape and marine subjects is attributed to him on the web given lack of other documented alternatives. That's just a case of unproved speculation on a 2+2 = 5 basis.

Whoever did the Thames views was technically competent and practised as regards the shipping but I see no connection with 'our Edwins', and it certainly looks later that Edwin senior could have done (i.e. circa 1900). It is also hard to see how men labouring on 'fruit and flowers' ceramic piece-work in the Staffordshire Potteries would have had opportunity to acquire it

I enjoyed reading your good English skills, however, I don't agree with your viewpoint at all.

It could very well have been painted by E. Steele (senior) who died in 1871, and do you know why? Because when a person is an artist, and good at painting, can do anything. I maintain it was him, because his signature is very close to the one Find Art Information has of him. It is also close to many paintings with the signature close to the one in the painting.

My father for instance was a French teacher, never went to the university to study architecture, and was able to renovate two many houses without an architect. He was able to do the two manor house plans.

My father could just by hearing a song to play it immediately afterwards in the piano.

Furthermore, Leonardo Da Vinci was able to not only paint, but also to try to invent how to fly, and to invent the spectacles. https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/leonardo-da-vinci-and-flight

Everyone is entitled to an opinion: demonstrable proof is another matter. The fact you had been investigating the Steeles because of your picture has considerably helped sort out who they all were. That has been the purpose of the discussion, centring on which of them painted the flower piece at the top (apparenty Edwin junior, 1839-1919).

Privately owned pictures occasionally help these discussions (so yours has, in a motivational sense). More knowledge also sometimes also emerges about them and their artists as a result but, by Art UK rule, they are not themselves the subject of discussion, or for continuing one that ought to conclude as this now should, unless there is anything new to add.

It's regrettable that no Art UK source appears to have any other subject than 'fruit and flowers' by or attributed to either of the two Edwin Steeles, though a possible reason - obviously enough - is that this was all they did.

Jacinto Regalado,

Whether or not fruit and flower pictures is all the relevant Steeles did does not concern this discussion, which is specifically about such a picture. I suggest the matter be wrapped up and closed as solved.

Peter van Merve, I totally agree with your first sentence. I am so very pleased to have contributed to find out who the flower painter is. Particularly for the above painting. I am sure if he were alive, would be extremely glad, that what he painted, it is his work, not of anybody else.

Just tidying up a couple of details.

Thomas Steel married Susannah Taylor on 19 September 1803 at Burslem. That at least tells us the date after which Edwin senior should have been born even if it was earlier in 1803 (and then only baptised with younger siblings on 6 December 1807)

At first sight he eludes the 1871 census (2 April) because erroneously noted in it as 'Edw[ar]d' (and also wrongly as aged 58), a 'Flower Painter Pottery' and one of three lodgers living with Mrs Anne Clarke, an 'Independent' widow of 51 as his landlady at 26 Broom Street, Hanley. When he died there on 25 August she was the one 'present' who notified the registrar on the same day, calling him a 'Potter's painter' aged 64: i.e. matching only his baptismal year, 1807.

Pieter van Der Marve, where did you get the information that Ann Clark was his lodger? I enjoyed reading your last statement.

Although, census cannot always be relied for facts.

If you want to discuss more about Edwin Steele's junior father, you are welcome to email me to the following email address: mariacoutinho38@yahoo.co.uk

I don't like to go against the rules and to talk anymore about this subject here, since the painter of the above painting we already know is Edwin Steele junior.

Since Edwin Steele (senior) did not appear in the 1871 census but we know that he died later that year at 26 Broom Street, Hanley, I instead looked in the census for 'Ann Clarke' -who told the Registrar she was present at his death - and found that she was head of the household (as 'Anne'). She had two other working men living there as well and, since none were related to her, they must all have been her lodgers. Thanks for the contact point but I have nothing else to add on Edwin junior.

Many thanks Peter van Der Marwe for your explanation.

This explains why Edwin Steele (senior) age was wrong on his death certificate. Ann Clark didn't know it well.

Kind regards
.

Yes: I suspect in this case that Steele himself was perhaps uncertain of his birth year but knew he was baptised in 1807. It is easy to imagine Mrs Clarke telling an enumerator in April that she thought the first name of 'Mr Steele' or perhaps just 'Ed' was Edward and that he was about 58 but - on telling him when he returned from work - learning it was Edwin and that he was then 63 or 64 (assuming he knew his exact day of birth). That would explain the the adjustment when she reported his death in August.

Just speculation of course but, despite the frequent errors in census data, experience tends to suggest that assuming people in past ages always knew their exact birth dates is a mistake. Literacy, the nature of official records ( i.e registers held by parishes, but not personally) and other things could call affect this.

Pieter, thank you for the Steele family summary. The collections have been contacted today about the proposed changes (Samantha Howard, Potteries Museum, has sent her thanks and says the summary will be very helpful).