Completed Dress and Textiles, Portraits: British 16th and 17th C, Portraits: British 19th C 48 If this is not Sir Thomas Fanshawe, who might it be?

Not James II & VII – Too young for period of outfit.
Duke of Monmouth?

I think this is George Mackenzie of Rosehaugh legal writer, in his early life!

Not the Duke of Monmouth - the nose is too long

The other portraits of the purported sitter at Valence House are by or after Lely, and the autograph portraits strike me as being of a different person.

I think the possibility that this might be the Duke of Monmouth bears further consideration. See below:

https://bit.ly/3nm866j

If we were to assume that this is a later copy of an original work (now unlocated) once held by the Fanshawe family, there is every possibility that a portrait of the Duke of Monmouth would have been found within their familial collection. Mary Walter, (half) sister to the Duke, married William Fanshawe, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that a portrait of him may have passed to her descendants.

IF THIS IS NOT SIR THOMAS FANSHAWE, WHO MIGHT IT BE?

This discussion is about a head-and-shoulders portrait on canvas said to be in the style of Mary Beale. It has been in the collection at Valence House Museum, Dagenham, apparently since 2007 when purchased at auction (note that the “acquisition method” has lost a final digit).

The discussion was launched in April 2021 by Valence House and attracted six contributions in its first four days before going quiet.

Valence House stated that recent conservation work has revealed that the picture is in fact a late 19th or early 20th-century copy of an unknown original. It is therefore frustrating that the image online appears to be before cleaning. Or did the work not involve cleaning?

On costume grounds the original may date to the 1680s or thereabouts. Can we make progress either in identifying the sitter or the artist?

THE SITTER will prove difficult to identify unless we can locate the original. I will do a bit of digging but I’m not optimistic.

THE ARTIST is often difficult to identify when examining a copy. It is even more so in this case because the image online is before cleaning. I don’t think the portrait has much to do with Mary Beale. Instead I would be looking at an artist whose handling is more solid such as John Riley as can be seen from Art UK images.

Can we see an image post-cleaning, please, and perhaps a summary of the conservation report?

A 1659 portrait of Fanshawe by Lely is https://bit.ly/3F5Tt0X

This work was purchased at the Bonham’s auction of 22 August 2007 (lot 483). There's a typo in the year of acquisition.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14922/lot/483/

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Here’s a reference to a portrait from which this might have been copied, in Barnstaple in 1913.

https://tinyurl.com/cbsvp2y8

The link to the Valence House website on Art UK no longer works but a Google search brings up their current site.

Attached are images of the picture in its frame of c.1880-1930. And of the canvas reverse with a faint Winsor & Newton stamp of much the same era. Whether the original canvas or a lining canvas would be revealed in the conservation report.

Marcie helpfully provides a link to the Bonham's 2007 sale. Two points of note. The picture was described as "Portrait of a gentleman, said to be Sir Thomas Fanshawe", i.e. "said to be". And the reproduction of the picture, attached, almost seems like another work if one was not looking carefully.

Another Lely portrait of Fanshawe is https://bit.ly/3l17dU4

We are dealing with a copy, possibly a restored one, but Lely shows a thinner, more drawn face with a different chin and different eyes. I do not believe our picture is of the Fanshawe in question.

Bratton Fleming is in Barnstaple. Please disregard my reference to a work in 1913 that might have been copied.

Can the name of the former owner be supplied? It might be possible for me to communicate with his/her family members on Ancestry.

Also, if the original was c. 1680s, the sitter looks too young to be the Fanshawe in question, who would have been in his fifties then.

So I am looking aat the Valence House "Copying the Fanshaws". There are a lot of them! .And I come across a familiar image- especially down to the Hair Style.

Re the former owner, I'm not sure who you're asking, Marcie. Unless their name is in the auction catalogue (very unlikely), only Bonham's will know - and they will certainly not reveal it for many years (Christie's, for example, have a 50-year rule). They may be willing to forward a query from you on to the vendor (without revealing his/her identity), but such enquiries often go unanswered. Could be worth trying, I suppose, but for me the picture's importance/quality doesn't merit a huge amount of effort...at least by me!

Yes, that makes sense, Osmund. At the beginning of the discussion we were told that “the former owner died in 2012”.

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Could the sitter be Sir James Drummond?

My composite is based on an image from the website of the British Library.

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_P-7-28

Notice the similar flower on his shoulder and the similar lace.

Here is a very similar painting - Nicola Matties- Italian Musician- from about 1680-- by Gottfried Kneller.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Matteis#/media/File:Nicola_Matteis,_by_Godfrey_Kneller.jpg

There are a vast number of "very similar" paintings. With a portrait of this kind, to be helpful in identifying the sitter "very similar" is not enough. The similarity needs to be exact.

The hair and patterned tea gown are similar to this 1687 portrait https://bit.ly/3Jtdnpw which, as Jacob noted, supports that the original was from the 1680s. Again, the sitter looks too young to be in his fifties, as the purported sitter would have been at the time.

SITTER: As I promised on 9/03/2023, I have done a bit of digging -- but without success. Bonhams saleroom description of our picture, "Portrait of a gentleman, said to be Sir Thomas Fanshawe" should be noted. It's far from obvious that the likeness and age of the man in our portrait fit with the earlier more certain portraits of Sir Thomas Fanshawe of Jenkins. Thus I would favour something along the lines, Unknown man, said to be Sir Thomas Fanshawe.

ARTIST: As to the artist of the original painting (ours is a copy), I continue to think that it has does not have much to do with Mary Beale. English school, 1680s, would be nearer the mark. Not really enough evidence to suggest John Riley though he is nearer the mark in handling.

All I can do here is to confirm - via the clothes etc in this portrait - that it dates from c.1685-90. He is dressed in very costly, fashionable clothes. A few years ago I discussed the banyan in the portrait of Nathaniel Cholmley, died 1687, with Lesley Miller, then Head of Textiles at the V and A. She explained that the front and back of banyans were cut from one length of fabric, with the pattern facing the correct direction at the back but becoming upside down over the whole of the front. Maybe the banyan in the portrait under discussion here is of Lyon - c.1680-1700 - silk which looks rather Baroque in design.

The cravat could be of very costly Gros Point de Venise lace. See attached image: from the Textile Centre, Leiden, of a 'Young Man from the Chigi Family,' by Jacob F. Voet, painter - died in 1689 - wearing a Gros Point de Venice cravat.

The long wig fits in with these dates.

The similarity between 'our' portrait and that of the V and A's 'Portrait of a young man', attributed to Louis Ferdinand Elle, c.1685 (V & A, P.68-1917) is quite remarkable.’ https://bit.ly/3Z95Nov

The idea that this might be the Duke of Monmouth remains attractive, but I doubt that can be proven. In any case, the sitter is too young to be a man in his latter fifties to early sixties, as the purported sitter would have been in 1685-1690.

Compare to this: https://bit.ly/40QaDsg

Thank you for all the help offered here to Valance House. Perhaps it's time to close this by updating the title to 'Portrait of a Gentleman, said to be Sir Thomas Fanshawe' and refer to it as 'English School, 1680s (copy of)' rather than style of Mary Beale, as Jacob Simon has suggested? Unless anyone has more to add?

The acquisition date has been amended to 2007.

I'll check that the group leaders agree before closing it later this week.

It is up to the collection, of course, but I would favour 'Portrait of a Gentleman (formerly called Sir Thomas Fanshawe)'

Here’s an interesting snippet. I’d like to order the will of “Major C. H. Fanshawe” but I can’t figure out his full name or when he passed away.

Probably Charles Henry Fanshawe (1874-1948)

Thank you, Jacob. I’ve ordered his will as well as that of his father Henry Ernest Fanshawe (1844–1913) and his son Richard Henry Simon Fanshawe (1912–1985). I’ll likely receive the documents next week.

I fear the man in your snippet may not be Sir Thomas Fanshawe, Kt of Jenkins (1628-1705), but his father's first cousin Sir Thomas Fanshawe, KB (1596–1665), created Viscount Fanshawe of Dromore in 1661.

The full page from which the snippet comes is attached (cheated out of Google books). It relates to events in May 1659, when Thomas F of Jenkins had not yet been knighted (which happened in Dec 1660), while the future Viscount had been a knight since 1626. The latter, too, was certainly "delinquent and sequestered" by parliament for his royalist support. I am still not certain, though, which man it was - the description of him as rightful patron of the living at Dengie in 1659 was clearly retrospective, and I think written after Thomas F of Jenkins had been knighted, so either is possible. You need to research which of them owned the manor and its right of presentation of clergy *at that date*. To complicate matters, Thomas of J married as his second wife the Viscount's daughter, so the property's 1923 ownership could have derived from either branch!

In any case, whichever man it refers to, there are known good portraits of both of them among the Fanshawe family ones at Valence House, so I'm not sure what more you're hoping to discover from all those Wills! See https://bit.ly/40NFRR3 and https://bit.ly/3KhuABw

Yes, it seems the Dengie estate was owned by Viscount Fanshawe's branch of the family, and the portrait referred to must be of him. It was inherited from the 5th and last Viscount in 1716 by his nearest male heir, Thomas Edward F (d. 1726), a member of yet another branch of the family. It was Thomas's grandmother, Lucy Walter, who was the sister of the Duke of Monmouth.

Major Chas Hy Fanshawe (and his younger brother the Rev Richd Evelyn F, Rector of Dengie and author of the piece in Essex Review) were descendants of this branch. Major Fanshawe (1874-1948) sold Dengie in 1929.

To correct Osmund Bullock who continues to supply so much good evidence and special solutions I feel a trifle humble. However Lucy Walter was the Mistress of the young King Charles II and the mother of the Duke of Monmouth, not the sister.

https://www.artuk.org/artdetective/discussions/discussions/could-john-michael-wright-have-painted-this-portrait-of-a-young-lady/username/Lou-Taylor/group/east-of-england-and-the-midlands-artists-and-subjects

This link should provide a picture of a disputed portrait of Lucy in 'artdetective discussions'.

Thank you for taking the time to research that small amount of intriguing text, Osmund. I wasn't able to identify the family and, since this work was purchased quite recently at auction, I had hoped that I could trace it back to a will.

Here’s a link to the research done by Valence House to investigate copies of its paintings (Louis, 09/03/2023 17:03).

https://artuk.org/discover/curations/copying-the-fanshawes

The wills have arrived and they weren’t helpful. Richard Henry Simon Fanshawe’s will didn’t even mention the “family pictures”.

Thanks for trying, Marcie. I suspect that we have now taken this as far as we can.

I rather agree, Jacob.

A quick thank you to Howard for correcting my rushed and careless error about Lucy Walter. While she was indeed the grandmother of Thomas Edward Fanshawe (who inherited Dengie in 1716), it was his *mother* (and Lucy's daughter) Mary née Crofts who was the Duke of Monmouth's [half] sister.

I think the Dengie Manor portraits are among those that ended up at Valence House; so as the Collection noted a couple of years ago, a portrait of the Duke (albeit an unconvincing copy) is circumstantially not improbable.

I think it reasonable to add a note to the Art UK entry like "It has been suggested that the sitter may be the Duke of Monmouth, whose half sister Mary (née Crofts) married into the Fanshawe family."

I would support that, Jacinto, and your suggested wording covers it admirably.

Good morning, we own Dengie Manor and have the original, if of interest?

Hello Robin. This is of immense interest - please could you email me directly at leeanne.westwood@lbbd.gov.uk so that we can converse offline. Many thanks.

Thank you to everyone for their comments so far. I have been following them with interest but haven't had the opportunity to respond and join the conversation.

Your interest in this portrait is much appreciated and your insights have helped to form a much clearer understanding of the portrait.

Robin and Leanne, thank you for joining this discussion – please update us when you have had a chance to talk about the portraits.

Marion suggested (04/04/2023) that it could be time to close this discussion. But it was then given a new lease of life when the original of our copy was reported by Robin Levy (26/06/2023). However, no movement since unless Valence House has something to report. If not, then Marion's suggestion of closing the discussion may now be appropriate.

Unfortunately, all attempts to contact Robin Levy regarding the original portrait have been unsuccessful. Therefore, no progress has been made in identifying the sitter. I am happy for this thread to be closed.

I emailed Robin Levy again today but if there is no quick response the discussion will be closed.

Ben Levy says he understands that the painting in Dengie Manor is not the original.